Journal for Wellness

This is episode 1 92. We are going to be talking about the eight scientific elements of a meaningful life,

Welcome to Wellness. In every season, we talk all things wellness, to help you align yourself, align with your goals, find balance in your life, and just recalibrate yourself if you are listening for the first time. Welcome, welcome. I'm so glad you're here, and let's get started in the rest of the podcast.

I have Dr. Laura Gabayan. She's a world renowned physician, researcher, and Psychology today contributor,

through her wisdom research project, she interviewed 60 wise adults across North America.

To find eight fundamental elements of wisdom, exactly what we're gonna be talking about. She describes her findings in her [00:01:00] new book and journal, common Wisdom, eight Scientific Elements of a Meaningful Life and Common Wisdom Journal.

I was most excited when I read this and even just saying this, that you have done so much research. I love nerding out on research and that you've written in Psychology Today. I have used that publication a lot in my undergrad degree, and I think that just speaks volumes because I know that they can be really picky.

So that speaks volumes about you and your work.

Thank you.

Yeah it's funny because, you know, I was a very academic physician and I did research and then I talked about weakness. As you can tell, I swear my speech and I was like, well, look at this speech I found out later is chronic Lyme disease.

And I've [00:02:00] been in college, but I was. Taking aback of how medicine in the Western world was very like, oh, do this, do that. Let me diagnose this. We don't even learn about Lyme disease in med school. And so then I was like, well, who does think outside the box? And it was the wise. And I'm like, well, what do we know about wisdom?

And we didn't know anything really. And so I did a research project and that's when I interviewed 60 people. I defined with the must eight elements.

That's amazing. And it's so funny that you're talking about Lyme disease because the person that I recorded right before you works with that. So it's just, I love having just these little synchronicities and these little connections.

It's fun to see.

Interesting.

Yeah. It just reminds us that [00:03:00] we are very seen and the world is not as big as we think it is,

And coincidences really don't happen. You know, we think they do, but they're really there for a reason.

Reminds us that we're seen and loved and cared for and on our journey.

Right.

My biggest question with this is how did you define who was wise and who was not?

So first of all, someone asked, did you know the 60 people? I did not know any of 'em, whenever you do any research project, you look at what was done for him.

Psychology journals, sociology journals, geriatric journals had talked about wisdom and they defined it. But I quickly, you know, when I started telling people, do you know someone wise? I clearly realized no one knew the definite no one.

I interviewed people [00:04:00] and then I asked them if they knew people

For some people it might be more. Oh, someone who's more of a wise or an old soul or, so how did you come up with what your definition was?

So that's where science came in. I had published a paper once before and qualitative research, and that's what I use. So positive research deals with taking ideas and collapsing 'em into one or a few.

For example, we started with 20 different elements or ideas and we came up with eight. And quantitative research is what I was used to doing. Looks at the numbers, you know, this a hundred thousand people or this number of people. So that's where I use the scientific data, for example. So my elements, I'll say what they were again, my book, common Wisdom.

Were [00:05:00] resilience, kindness, positivity, spirituality, humility, tolerance, creativity and curiosity. And so the third element was positivity. But for example, some of the 60 got humor. And some got gratitude. And so both humor and gratitude collapsed into positivity.

So initially we started with more ideas, but they collapsed into bait.

That makes sense and that makes it a lot easier to grasp. And if it was 20 or 50, it'd be a lot harder to really absorb and how do I apply this into my own life? Right. I love that. Qualitative is so much better to me than dealing with numbers and I love metadata type of research.

I really enjoyed my research class that I took.

Well, it's funny 'cause they use qualitative [00:06:00] data and studies and science to kind of define things, to start things off to tell a story. So I think that's what we did.

That's amazing.

Walk us through this journey.

So, the ideas for the book took about 10 years and the actual project group meeting people, interviewing them online, took about seven months. During those meetings, I had a team of two others. Me and the other two would meet on Thursdays two, Sundays two so we met like four hours a week.

During the meeting, we would review the interviews, assign them an element or different things. In between that I wrote as well. I started in October and I ended in around May, June. [00:07:00]

And why did this even interest you to begin with?

I think it was, I felt like in western medicine, 'cause I am, I'm a physician. I'm very western trained in western medicine. Everything was kind of like, no, this is how you do it. It's kind of like routine. And I think it interested me because I realized that wait, we do need to think outside box.

We do need to be more curious and creative. We do need all that. That's why I was like, well, let me approach a very abstract topic. With the scientific lens. And so I tell people it's kind of like an intersection of science and soul because it's very, it's kind of brings the two together.

I think that's great because we. [00:08:00] Maybe it's very western world of us, but we tend to think one or the other. Yeah. And we forget that it all lines up to become all of us as a whole person and all the parts of us. And are we doing okay and are we not? I have these bookmarks that have like really good sayings on 'em and you can't really read it from here, but it says, don't think outside the box. Think like there is no box. I love that.

So I just, that's a good one. And I think for me, I was so Western medicine, I mean I got a master's I went, I was very like, okay, what's in medicine is the answer.

But it wasn't and when I started develop symptoms, I was like, there must be more. But no, I didn't get that from Western Medicine.

Yeah.

So it sounds like, and I feel like this is for everybody that I interview, is that this project is very personal to you. This is [00:09:00] why you really started it.

And it changed my life. It's funny because someone was like, oh, why did this happen? It hasn't been enjoyable for someone who's in your doc and used to running around. It has been easy in any way. Being dependent is especially hard for me. I am, and I realized, you know, it surprised some pain because now I live a totally different life.

So it sounds like you had to definitely have a pivot because of Lyme disease. So you said you were an ER doctor.

Well, no, I can't do anything. I can't walk around. So nursing was my past and so, but the research, looking at something objectively is always going to part of who I am, Uhhuh.

And same with the medicine. It's always gonna be part of who you are. [00:10:00] But I approach it differently because of this whole process.

That makes sense. And you've definitely had to do that, like you said, with your own life, with having your sense of identity had to shift. Yes. One way or another. I'm sure it was extremely difficult and you either embrace it or you don't.

I wonder with this, if that led you on the path to what is wisdom? How can I find my own wisdom?

Right. And then Tony, because I recently went to Long Con presence two weeks ago, and I was the only one that was in a wheelchair.

In a way, I kind needed it to be so extreme because it stopped my body and it caused me to pivot, as you said.

I'm the same way. I was smiling 'cause I was like, [00:11:00] yeah, that's me. And I had that yesterday. I was pretty couch ridden. I tend to burn myself out and it's that reminder of, okay, why does my husband do this?

I'm like, well, I have different cycles than he does. You know, women have, it's a monthly cycle. Mean it's a day cycle. And. It's the way I grew up. I'm used to doing that and I can hold myself back more than I used to, but it's that reminder, I'm very all or nothing. So I definitely resonate with that. And it's a journey to undo that.

Is. It took a long

time,

I have to say. I mean, I started noticing random symptoms in 2013. The book was published in 2024 last year, but I mean, think about the journey it took

that explains why it took you so long to get to this book

well, I had the idea [00:12:00] during COVID. I knew I wanted to do a good project 'cause that's what I was used to. And it takes time to be thorough.

I wonder if you're also like me where it takes a lot to see the steps and then be able to do that.

I am a planner, but I just knew, okay, to do the project, you have to know what's out there. You have to define it the only thing I defined that the people I interviewed was their age. That to be age 50 to seven, nine, outside of that didn't matter. 'cause I knew wisdom is not different based on gender.

Political affiliation, race or ethnicity, but it is different based on region. So the wisdom of Asia is different than the wisdom [00:13:00] in North America, that's why I stuck to North America and the age as well.

Okay. I wondered about why you chose America. Why did you choose the age that you did?

So wisdom actually has an inverse U relationship with the age and that when you get younger, people does take time experience to get there.

And older adults, once they're in 80 plus, they kind of become less flexible.

What else have you learned from the data?

That was it. T

his is all beforehand, and then what I noticed was if you remember the eight elements in my book, the first one was resilience and I noticed that the people had gone through horrible life events.

And yet they were very peace and they were not bitter. [00:14:00] They were kinda like, it'll be okay. They weren't angry and that was interesting.

Have you find any commonalities into how they were able to get to that point?

No, I think this goes back to me thinking the eight elements are related. I mentioned that in my book but the eight elements.

So I think they were innately positive. So third elements, positivity, and I think that helps a person be resilient. So yes.

Ah, that's something, as a parent that I am, how do I get my children to learn resiliency, not forced upon them because that. That's breaking them, right? But how do I encourage them to, because with resiliency there comes grit, right?

And how do we really help them to not give up so [00:15:00] quickly? And one of the things that I catch myself saying with them is, you have your own big, beautiful brain stop using mine for really simple tasks too. 'cause they're young, it's. But it could be really hard, and I know I'm not the only one that feels this way in parenting.

You can think of it this way. If you have any management experience and you have other people that you work with, there's so many different ways that we feel those towards other people of how do we encourage resiliency to come out? And that sense of when do you dig in versus when do you not? Because how many people just keep going and you can tell that is the absolute wrong road that you should be on.

Like you need to pivot badly. And we've even had this in our own lives. And I mean for you, you were forced to have to pivot. Yes. But how [00:16:00] long were you fighting it before you decided, okay, I need to pivot. Then that goes with the resiliency.

I think it was four or five years, 2013.

I was like, okay, wherever it is, I'm gonna fight it, and then 2000. 17, 18, 19. I was like more of like, okay, I wanna fight it it took a while. It took long while.

I bet It sounds like you have enough of my personality that I could see that it would take me a while too. And it's, that's hard.

but I thought about it. I really needed something this extreme to happen. If it was not that bad, I would just try fight it and push through.

[00:17:00] Yeah.

It put things into perspective too.

How have you changed your outlook on life and applying this to your own life through learning this research and there's something so different from having all of this data and looking at it to then writing it. I'm sure that's when you really started to, how do I apply this in my own life?

Well, it's funny 'cause the eight elements are in a way, the secret to living a meaningful life. For example, the fourth element is spirituality. In my book communism and by the way, I called it communism because I looked the common trait. Elements that everyone had.

Hence the name Calm Wisdom. So the fourth element was spirituality. And what was interesting about spirituality was it was really hard for me [00:18:00] to work on that chapter. I was a total scientist physician. Never learned to think about that. And I always learned that if you don't see it, if you can explain it, if you can't measure it, it doesn't exist.

And now like the reason why you have two people that are attracted to one another, whether it's friends or romantically, wherever it is, and nothing can explain it. Like why are you attracted to this person and not to that except for spirituality and there's just so much.

In our lives that involves spirituality that we don't think about. So I think when I look at the eight, I feel like it's a secret to living a good life.

I love how much it correlates with, the eight dimensions of wellness as my foundation for my wellness coaching,

so that's right, because I feel [00:19:00] like a lot of people also.

Would want their kids to think about those eight. So I feel like those eight are a big part of our lives.

Yeah. And the yinging in both kept coming to me when you were talking about science and spirituality because they should fit together.

Most things, even political views, most people land in the middle.

I think I talk about the YY in my book. Either way, I agree. No one is ashamed.

They will be in like one topic, but then if you go here, then there it's that reminder that we are so individual and that we should not be piled into all the people with blue eyes, all the people.

I think it's also reminder that we're more alike than we are different. And I think people don't realize that, but we are.

Yeah. Sometimes it's fun at the beginning of the conversation, all right, how [00:20:00] are we different? All right, now let's talk about how we're alike. Because it can be so fun to be like, Ooh, how are we not an echo chamber to each other?

What can I learn from you? But for some people, it can be very off-putting to be like, okay, how are you different from me

and I?

 my second element in my book on wisdom was kindness. And if you think about it, regardless of how old we are, where we came from, we're all attracted to that.

We all want that and we create that. So that's just a sign that we really are and natively alike.

I love that. And when we are kind to each other, that's when we really connect to the best. Yes. And when we connect to ourself and our spirituality. Yes. So I would love it if you could, and I can give you whatever time you need, find me your favorite section in your book and if you could read to [00:21:00] us a little bit.

It's funny 'cause it takes me a while. To walk over and get my book.

Okay, I am gonna read this part of her book for you, and, oh, you even have a quote by Dolly Parton. The way I see it, if you want the rainbow, you gotta put up with the rain. I love that quote of hers. Resilience was the most common element associated with wisdom. It makes sense when we think about people who have encountered a difficult life challenge and resolved it with grace.

We tend to regard them with special admiration. We become intrigued by how that person managed to not only survive the obstacle but thrive. We realize that because of that experience, they likely now have a different perspective on life. They have turned a potentially negative experience into a positive learning opportunity, making them wiser.

The more of these life challenges they overcome, the [00:22:00] wiser they seem to be. As Oprah Winfrey once noted, they turned their wounds into wisdom.

So I do like to quote a lot of people. Because I feel like a lot of what everyone had to say was really helpful.

I like that. Especially getting different perspectives.

We need to hear things several times for it to click, but we need to hear it from different people and in different ways as well. So I love that. And I love the way you write too.

That was, I have a great editor and he. I'm a scientist, so I don't like to kind of belabor an idea, so I'm very to the point.

So it always helps to have a really good village around. Yeah, and I had written before for academic journals, but it was very different. But I did know that, you know, everyone wants you to be to the point, [00:23:00] so I think that's something I use in my book too, is being to the point.

And I like that you sound like a person because an academic journal is, you're supposed to sound more analytical,

right?

Yeah. I love this

And you mentioned the journal so I had written the book, the book got published in March of last year, and many people loved that. Each chapter has questions after it.

And so I was like, well, I can write more of that in a journal. The journal is small, but it definitely makes someone think about the eight elements.

Yeah,

and the journal is hard for you to, I mean, someone has to order it

How can kindness affect a negotiation?

So in the book I [00:24:00] talk about how, I think it's in the Kindness chapter or someone I interviewed was he had written a book about negotiating and you can approach it kindly.

And either way, you get the job done. It's a matter of, you know, I think being kind about it will be easier for you and the other person ahead though.

And I think this is important, especially now when I'm still waiting for grocery prices to go down since COVID, they're not going to, but I'm gonna keep waiting.

And we are all feeling the pinch, so to speak, since COVID in one way or another. Even if we're doing well financially, we're still feeling it when we're paying for something and it's higher than we remember it being. Everything is higher, everything is gone up. I feel like really fast.

Yes. And it [00:25:00] hasn't stabilized, equalized or any of that in any sense of the word. And I'm thinking about this because I was supposed to write my newsletter today for. Those in my community, and it's going to be about how to ask for a to start with, and then it's going to go back into how do you transition to a job because so many people with the government shutdown right now it impacts not just government workers, but it trickles down and it's going to even once the shutdown is done, and we all have Well, AI too.

Yes. Yes. There's good and bad always. Right?

And it's great that AI is out, however, and that's with everything in life that there's stuff like this. So that does go with negotiation. You can think of it as negotiation for raise. You can think of it as negotiation between ai. Because there's the good and the bad, and how do you find that middle ground and negotiate with your children, getting them to go to bed [00:26:00] or for me, getting them out of the office so I could record with you.

We have so many things that we are negotiating in life, so I like that question because we want to find that ground of how can we be kind, but firm and hold to our boundaries maintain who we are, keep the core of who we are intact and not be tarnished and still show humanity, love and compassion and all of these things that make us and the world beautiful and it can be hard.

How does that affect negotiation? Because you wanna keep that touchpoint in there and that really is wisdom right there, isn't it?

Yeah, it is.

What has [00:27:00] been the biggest aha moment in your research and in writing this incredible book?

I think it's the idea that I really, I came from a place of fear and everything I did, and now I come from a place of faith and I think it's, I'm not scared like it was.

I feel like, okay, it'll work out, don't worry. My whole life I was a very fear-based, anxious person and so I think taking that and changing that has been a big one for me.

Sounds like it definitely remade you then.

Yes.

That's amazing. And I look forward to other people getting this, reading it.

I did a positive intelligence course for coaches and in that he talked about in the 1950s they were moving [00:28:00] this huge Buddhist statue.

And when they moved it, it was a lot heavier than they expected it to be. So they thought they damaged it at first, but they realized that it was pure gold and it had a bunch of casting stuff just wrapped around it. They were covering the fact that the Buddha was gold from the people who were coming in and pillaging.

They were protecting it. And so many times we do that around ourselves and we all have to come to this point in our lives where we are willing to take off all of that and just be our big, bold, beautiful selves and to show the gold that is us. The purity that is us. And this allows for us to maybe rediscover or discover for the first time wisdom and how we wanna show up in the world, in our lives and how we [00:29:00] wanna shine our bright, beautiful light into this world.

Thank you for writing this. I love journals.

So, yeah, they, I think I mentioned it, it was the questions, people liking those questions that caused me to write the journal. And it's not a summary. It can be done on its own. But it is helpful to have both. It's helpful to the book and the journal.

But I agree with you, I think I felt like by being fearful, I was in control. And I don't know if that's an accurate representation in any way. I think it made it harder. I could have done what I did in life and not been fearful.

So I think, it was my way of trying to be in control, but I think. When look back and, you know, there's, you're not controlled. You [00:30:00] think you are, but you're not wasted energy. And that's why this happened and my body, this happened because I was drawing myself to the ground.

Going back to my book, I feel like people would really enjoy not only my book communism, but the journal and my website has a lot of all this. Laura goodbye.com has a lot of, but you know what? Really, you know, it's funny 'cause I talk about the eight elements and. Only one person of the 60 I interviewed had all eight.

So it's not common for people to have one or more you know? And so I think I recently came up with the Wisdom IQ test, and that's on my website, and that kind of helps a person know, oh yeah, is something I'm good at. And it's really important that people [00:31:00] are honest, but the wisdom, my Q test is a good place to start.

Ooh, that sounds fun. I'm excited to check it out. And all this will be linked in the show notes, so don't worry. You might already be cheating. Like sometimes I do and you're looking at them while listening. But for me, I love having a book and I'll read through the book and I'll kind of journal off on my own.

Then reading through the journal and doing the actual journal part, it feels like a really good refresher. So I am very excited to go through that. And yes, I totally cheated and looked at the journal first. Normally I don't, but I love how much it correlates with the dimensions of wellness.

And all of this is really just different modalities to look at your life and how can you make your life better, and how can you have your own finding, your own way of aligning yourself so that you feel like I know my path, I know myself, [00:32:00] I feel aligned and I feel empowered, and I am making the most of my life because.

We all have these chances to remake ourselves, and it can be really exhausting if we keep trying on a new mask, willing to find it doesn't fit, because we really need to take off the masks, right? So thank you for the incredible amount of research that you put into this book

Thank you

congratulations on your book, baby.

Thank you.

Thank you so much for listening to this episode. I hope that you found the answers that you needed, and you had some amazing aha moments. Please share this episode with others because it helps us align ourselves and then better align the world so that we can seek the healing that we really are looking for as part of the legal language.

I am a certified life coach with a Bachelor's in [00:33:00] Applied Health. That is what I am leaning on for this. This is general advice. Take it as such. See you in the next episode.