Leadership Nervous System Regulation

Today we are talking about how nervous system regulation shapes leadership under pressure, and what leaders can do to stay clear, connected, and effective.

 Today I have with me

Amar Dahal. And he's coming all the way from Australia, so he gets to tell us the future here while telling us about somatics. I love talking about somatics. This is something that has been very beneficial for me in my own healing journey. I was very stuck working with a therapist and wasn't getting any further, and I started working with a somatics coach, and it just made it to the point where I didn't need therapy anymore.

So I am very much a believer in this. I work with this with my clients, with myself, so I am excited to talk about this. And what's really great is he is a therapist as well, so he gets to show us both sides of this. Let me tell you a little bit more about him, and then I'll get started on the questions.

 He says his professional journey grew from wanting to understand what happens to people when pressure exceeds their capacity to respond well. Through his work as a psychotherapist, researcher, and leadership practitioner, he saw that capable leaders often

struggle not from a lack of knowledge but from operating under sustained pressure. And this led him to develop neurosomatic leadership, combining psychotherapy, nervous system regulation, and practical leadership strategies to help people stay clear, connected, and effective under pressure. Thank you for being on, first of all.

And let's go ahead and jump into the questions, 'cause I can tell that we are gonna have so much that we need to cover, and we're gonna try and get it into 30 minutes, so we'll see what we can do. And then whatever we don't cover we will put in the newsletter as well, so don't worry. You, you'll still get more of him.

So let's start with you found that leaders often know exactly what good leadership looks like, yet lose access to that knowledge under pressure. What is happening in that moment?

Thank you for having me on. Nice to meet you, Autumn. and it's a lovely question to start the conversation. What happens really is happening at a physiological level first, right?

So when people begin to feel pressure, their nervous system registers that as a threat. People begin to get their sympathetic nervous system activated, and w- when that happens, there's several changes that occur. One, we lose access to the full suite of creativity that we have, and things begin to taper into a very binary way of looking at things, right?

This is survival physiology, so we're talking about right and wrong, th- the need to, to be certain or to, to have certainty when pressure is on is quite high, right? A- again, if there's a physiological or, psychobiological threat, then we need to respond to it. And so when that happens, we might be these incredible creative people, but as that pressure rises and that nervous system activation creeps up, we lose access to that full s- suite of our capabilities.

So w- what I would say or the way that I frame this is to say that we have capacity and we have capability, and when, when we're stressed, our capacity reduces, which then leads us to have lower access to our capabilities. So let, let's start the conversation with that maybe.

I really like that, how you worded it, and just that really resonated with me.

So let's talk about this, 'cause this will get further into your research, so we can talk about that a little bit more. Mm. Is you describe miscalibration. Mm. And that's becoming too soft when directness is needed or too forceful under pressure. Wow, so many leaders that I can think of with that. How can a leader recognize when their own perception may be the thing that's distorted?

And then how does that go with the capabilities versus capacity?

Again, a very, very interesting question. And I think what makes that interesting is there has to be a default setting towards self-responsibility and curiosity in order for this to work. And the reason I say this is because, again, when the pressure is on, when thing...

And, and it's not just pr- I mean, pressure also seems like such a cliché when we're talking about leadership. It implies, f- in my mind, it's, it's, there's, there's, a situation that requires immediate action, and so someone is there and they're able to cut through it all and, and pick the right path.

And that's a, that's maybe a little bit more of a Hollywood trope. So for me, when I say pressure, I mean anything that knocks someone off balance, right? So, so with founders, the way that that can look like is... well, a-and I think that this is actually very environmental for, for senior leaders, founders, and C-suite kind of people, is that their lives are busy.

There's this constant background busyness. And so against that background of to-do list that's longer than the available time, ne- and then new things come up, right? The crisis of the day comes up, and that needs to be dealt with. So in, in that environment, there's a need for certainty, right? So you're saying, how does someone know when their decision-making gets distorted?

 and I'm saying there has to be a default, approach to curiosity, to being op- growth mindset because it's not all the time, but it's often going to be when under pressure, there's an over sense of certainty, right? That people see one way and they respond. And so it's precisely in that moment that they're actually closed to all the other avenues or ways of dealing with this thing.

And, and the, the pressure point with this is the need to be decisive to move on to the next thing, right? It could be even a parent, right? There's just this constant, a train, train carriages flashing past of things that need doing. So I think the, the problem is that it's the case that people don't-- what they often won't see it.

It's not something that someone says, "Well, maybe my judgment is off." It comes down to being very curious and beginning to understand what is the default setting of my stress level. And this is something that is both, it's therapeutic in nature. It's a therapeutic inquiry, but it's also a leadership inquiry because what we're talking about is creating a vocabulary around stress that people don't have unless they cultivate it, and that's then when they begin to see it.

So, I would say that people, people really need to have that default of curiosity and ask themselves or, or ideally have a third party, whoever that may be, their coach or their therapist or whatever it is, someone who's, who's able to meet them and speak the truth to them, right? Because again, I think this is one of the thing- one of the things that I find that, is really valuable to the clients that I work with, is my ability to tell them the truth that would otherwise be unpalatable, but make it fr- frame it in a way that, that's digestible.

So I would say all of that is there, and then there is this other completely different way of looking at it, which is to say that if someone was to be informed about the natural progress of a human life, by the time we get to the second half of our life, and we can talk more about this, but it is inevitable that some of the qualities that made people successful absolutely turn into the very same things that restrict them.

And this is just applies to all human beings. So we can, we can talk about that as well. But there is a mechanism there that is part of the human condition.

So why is that? Why does the switch get flipped?

As I said, it's the, the, the way of what it is to, to live. So the, the word comes from depth psychology and the work of Carl Jung, and it's enantiodromia.

 it's... which is a Greek root. it's a, it's a Greek word, and he kind of, took it and put it in a different context. But the gist of it is that when someone goes into something very far, it actually flips into its opposite, right? So to give you an example, let's say I come out- let's say I was born in a really intolerant family, and I go to school or I'm in a social group where we ex- begin to explore tolerance.

And I become more, and more, and more tolerant until I get to the point where I become intolerant of intolerant people. And so what started as this opening actually flips itself into its opposite. So there are s- there are very particular qualities that make people successful and un- are necessary when it comes to meeting the world.

And, and again, we can unpack those. There's six that I've uncovered in my research, six qualities which create power, and authority, and success, but in the second half of a career will also then become... They, they turn into their opposites. And so that's, that's the mechanism.

You answered a question for me that I've been asking even my husband rhetorically, 'cause he didn't have the answer of, why was my aunt someone who was so easy to get along with, things would just roll off her back, and then as she's aged, it just has totally flipped, and she's not enjoyable to be around, and just the difference?

And I know other people like that, but specifically that it's a family member, it's, closer to home. And yeah, thanks for the answer. Never thought I'd ever really get it. No worries. And it was very rhetorical, so interesting. And I'm sure so many of us, even outside of leadership, can think of people like that who have just completely switched, and why is that?

And that makes sense. Interesting.

So this part, you describe the harmony illusion, where everything seems fine because people have learned which truths are safe to tell the leader. How does a leader unknowingly create that environment?

Well, if we go with what it is that harmony, harmony is a quality creates.

So that's one of the six, qualities that, that do flip into its opposite. So initially, and, when we go into the workforce, we learn that if, if I have the value of harmony, it's going to support me to create connection, it's going to be conducive to creating a sense of belonging both for myself and other people.

And if I'm, a force for harmony in the workplace, it's also gonna give me some influence, right? So it's got these really positive qualities, but the problem with harmony and where it starts to go awry is that harmony begins to turn into o- becoming over-accommodating. And so when that happens, people begin to get into being a people pleaser, becoming conflict avoidant, not having the difficult conversations, and generally having permeable boundaries or weak boundaries.

And so that's the way that the value of harmony taken, really embodied. And, and I see this with people who are really successful. I, I know one, or I know several people that I work with that have become really quite successful. we're talking C-suite level people or founders who have built really decent sized businesses, and that, that kind of connection and harmony has helped them get to a certain stage, but then they find themselves overextending because they are carrying too much.

And so this is then the reframe that has to happen or there is a reframe that needs to happen.

So since we're already starting to hit on your six, which one do you feel like is maybe the most overlooked by people?

I, in terms of when you say which is the most overlooked, if you, if you're saying that in the context of which is the one that is most commonly, on display that people miss, I would say it's the, the value of responsibility. So responsibility turning into carrying too much, right? So again, if we look at responsibility as a value, what, what, what it does for people is it creates a sense of me being reliable.

So if I'm embodying the value of responsibility, it gives me the sense or gives others a sense I'm reliable. It makes me trustworthy. It makes people believe that I have capabilities and, and I can hold, I can hold what I need, and it's going to drive success. But what that turns into for people is becoming controlling.

So you, again, people who are in senior positions can tend to, when the pressure's on, who, who have this, will take back on things that other people should be holding, right? And, and, it can lead to burnout. It also means that people inadvertently become the bottleneck because everything needs to flow through them because they're holding it all.

 and the, the corollary of getting into this situation of burnout in particular is that it then can have this really subtle creep where those people begin to resent others, or it can begin to become a little cynical in the way they view their themselves, their work, their place, all of that. And the last thing that over responsibility, does that I've found is it leads people to sacrifice the important on the altar of the critical.

And what I mean by that is important things need to be done. That- that's the background stuff of life, that's the background stuff of work. It's just the, the, the important stuff. But when there is over responsibility, then there will become a crisis focus, which is something happens, and then that will need to be handled immediately by that person, even if it doesn't have to be that way.

And that then drives the cycle of becoming the bottleneck and drives a, a... It will undermine a culture because it also will create a culture that rewards crisis, right? Because the person that fixes the crisis will have, good vibes, and it's just that extension of, of being responsible turning into something that isn't so helpful.

And honestly, we've all worked for people like that and have hated it. So it's that moment of, okay, let me take a pause right here. Let me think about when I've worked for somebody like that and how I wish things were different. Now that I'm leader, how can I do things differently? And I'm sure you talk about this What can people do to maybe have that moment of, "Okay, I need to check in with myself"?

 what is that, kind of that check engine light on a car of, "Okay, I need to be doing something before things are critical"?

Well, I mean, you put your finger on, on what I think is arguably, it's, it's countercultural, firstly, to really, to really address this in, in what I see. So what I see is a world that is quite unstable at the moment.

I see that the pressure is high. I think that the world is getting busier. People are, people are getting busier and busier. So what ha- what inadvertently happens is people end up looking for the easy way, the easiest way to solve things, right? The what's the quickest way that I can do this? What's the fi- and I see, and this isn't directed at you, but I get...

I, I've been on a lot of podcasts, and one of the most ques- the most common questions I'm asked is, what's the q- what's the one tip that's really easy for people to do that's going to make the biggest impact? And the problem with that question is it, is it emphasizes the need for speed rather than actually, I need to slow down and attend to this properly.

And the paradox of this is that on the one hand, there's this dialogue that says, cultural dialogue that says, speed faster. tr- how can we get more for less, right? This, this push for efficiency. But I think anyone who becomes really successful or has authority or does something, exceptional, th- they will have achieved it w- not by doing that.

They will have done-- There will be things that they attend to properly. So to answer your question, I think the thing that people need to do is to realize that I, this check-in that I'm going to do, I need to value myself, and I re-

Really do need to slow down, find a proper answer to the questions and the challenges and the limits that I have, rather than be satisfied with, business as usual in whatever domain. Does that make sense?

Yeah, and it totally goes back to what you were saying about delegate and leave it delegated.

Don't try and take things back, because that gives you- Absolutely ... that space to take care of yourself, to make sure that you're taking care of yourself on a deep level. Have you seen the doctor lately? Have you gotten up to take a drink of water, to use the bathroom? You don't need to- Mm-hmm I'm totally looking in the mirror here.

You don't need to stay up later to work on that project, because chances are you're going to have to undo all the things you did because you're completely done for the day but you're pushing yourself. And that doesn't mean staying up later. That could be staying at work later, whatever staying up later your version is that you tend to do Well, y'all do it- Yeah

in one way or another.

Yeah, 100%. 100%. And I, I, I don't have an answer to this. It's amusing, but I wonder whether the ability for people to use AI to produce, to, to speed up things is really driving more of, more of the need for speed, or whether it's allowing people to slow down a bit and see how the o- the net productivity can still be higher, but it doesn't mean that I need to push everything everywhere to its maximum capacity all the time.

So I don't know what the answer is, but I, I do wonder whether we'll get to a point where people can may- Well, I think, I think it may be starting to happen, where people are realizing that to, something that's completely AI-built is pretty clearly AI-built. And so there is value for maybe doing some big-picture thinking or big, some, some broad brush strokes, and then taking the time to fill it in manually and, and giving it that quality rather than, more, more, better, faster being the, the kinda axiom.

Yeah. And I think the way you worded it, I really like that. Why don't we ask it as a question for ourselves, is, of how am I using this time if I'm putting AI into something? Am I using that to then keep g- doing things faster, or while it's doing its thing, am I taking a chance to take some deep breathing, take a chance to get up and walk around my office, go have a c- con- conversation with one of my coworkers, check in on them, see how they're doing, have that chance to have, to get the social aspect of the eight dimensions of wellness?

What am I doing with my time right now? And I think about that. I, do the E-GYM at my gym. I do that along with free weights. But when I'm at the E-GYM, I have to wait for longer. They, they build that in. Mm. You're supposed to be resting in between weight sets. I don't do that when I'm doing my free weights.

And it was frustrating at first, and then I took that as, okay, well, I'm gonna focus on my breathing during this time, and I'm going to focus on relaxing in between. And what about when you guys are stuck in traffic, or when you guys are suddenly stuck in a line that you didn't expect, or y- your computer is buffering or has to restart for whatever reason?

What are you doing with that time? So I really like the way you were wording that, and that made me think about how we should always be asking that question of what am I doing with my time right now? Do- am I shoving more things in, or am I allowing that space?

Yeah. Yeah, great. And, and, we also see that with food, right?

 the movement back away from industrial fast production to slow food. And, we can even see the difference in nutrient density between something organic and something that's been grown, and pumped full of chemicals. So I, I think that we- we're seeing... if we're talking about the dimensions of wellness and we look at them globally, then I think the one part of the, the process is to push back on that more, better, faster, the idea that more is always better.

Because as a concept, it is insanity, right? if we were to think of, of what we're expecting to produce from the world, to have the paradigm of infinite growth in a finite ecosystem is insane. It's just, it's, it's gonna break. And the same thing is true of us. We are finite beings in, in ways, and so if we don't work out how to, hold that and not always be thinking in terms of more, more, more, more, it's going to...

 the, the concept of wellness will, will buckle under that.

Yeah. Okay, so I'm gonna ask you a question now, but you're not gonna answer it.

Yeah.

You're gonna have to email me the answer. This one, which I kind of asked this, but this is deeper, is what are the earliest signs in the body that a leader is losing regulation before it shows up in a decision, conversation, or relationship?

So he'll answer that in the newsletter. But the question- Mm-hmm ... I'm gonna ask you for real now, that you're gonna answer, is how do we get into your work, into your world? Tell us all the links. Tell us where to go.

Thank you very much. yeah, happy to. So I have a quiz that people can do, and that's a complimentary quiz.

All that, all the people need to do is give me, an email so we can send through a report. So I'll, I'll give you the, I'll give you the link for that. I have my website, and I'm on social. So I'm on, LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram, and it's, Amar Dal. So just my name.

Perfect. And the links are all there.

If you do a really quick pause, if you don't have it queued up to play the next thing, do a quick pause and you'll find all the links. If not, make sure you're in my newsletter because the links will be there, too. I know so many people are on the go like I am, where we have something else queued up and then we forget it.

So this is the opportunity that you have it in your email. It's ... You're not worrying about algorithm or queues or anything else. It is in your inbox. So make sure and join the newsletter if not. And please share this with other people who that are in leadership positions because the more that we get leaders to take care of themselves, the more they allow for everyone underneath them to also take care of themselves, to take off time.

We know so many employers who say that they offer all these benefits, including time off, but they don't expect you to use time off, and that is so wrong and it's so expensive to the company as well as to the individual person. So share this away. This makes a huge difference in the world because when we help the people up here, it all trickles down.

Well, and, and I think the other part of this, that's beautifully said, and thank you. What, what I, if I can add something to that, which is I think of leadership as a function of life. And what I mean by that is whenever there's two or more human beings together, there's a structure that's there, right?

A structure emerges. So if it's a family, then usually it's the parents who are at the top of that. If it's a team, then there's going to be a, there's a, a, an order. There's a captain, and then there'll be people underneath that. If it's in an organization, similarly there's a hierarchy. So I think that the...

When I talk about leadership, it, it applies to people in a business context, and that's where I do a lot of research, but I think that leadership is at core a word that we can use to describe the way we just organize ourselves when we're in groups. And I think when we step into, to leadership, well, firstly, I think everyone every day is both a leader and a follower, right?

If I, if you make a suggestion to me, where are we gonna go and get the best green smoothie in the, in the area, you're g- I'm gonna be following your lead. You're gonna tell me, right? When, when we talk about which movies we like, or what we've got to do, or allocate chores, all of this requires leadership.

So I think that the principles that we're talking about really do apply to everyone because it's in... When embodying leadership in the moment, I, the way I, I really do see it like this, is that this is when we as a being really crystallize into existence because we're actually saying something, we're doing something, we're standing for something, we're driving some- something to happen in the world.

And, and in order for that to happen, we need other people to follow. And when they're dr- when they're the ones in the driver's seat, it's something that we need to follow to support. And I see, so it's very organismic the way that this whole, process of life and organization and, and doing stuff happens.

And I, and leadership is a, a word I use to describe that process of organization, and it also applies to people who are in, executive positions and the usual kind of conversational way that leadership is defined.

Or even people who want to have that trajectory in their career to get here. Why not work on all these things and make it a habit now, instead of when everything feels like it's on fire and you're in a higher leadership position within your career?

Or- Oh, absolutely ... parenting

Yeah, absolutely. And, and the research into this is absolutely unequivocal in the sense that the, the need for emotionally intelligent leaders is, is... or the value of emotionally intelligent leaders far outweighs the value of leaders who are emotionally unintelligent. So to your point, I would, invite people to think that if you have aspiration, that y- you're gonna need emotional intelligence to actually drive sustainable success for yourself and for others, and that is going to make you more successful.

So it's a, it's an intrinsic part of what makes people successful. N- and what you're saying, not just a, a, a vaccine when someone is already on fire, because then it's hard to become present to all of those eight dimensions of wellness when you're already burnt to a crisp and completely overwhelmed, and your relationships have suffered and your, the, the pressures on you, exceed your capacity to actually meet them.

Those are my favorite clients.

The hot mess. I'll take

it. Yeah. Hear, hear. Yeah. Nice. Yep. Fantastic.

Well, thank you so much for this conversation and for working with me scheduling-wise, since we're in totally different time zones. So I really enjoy this, and I can see so many parallels between my ideal client and yours, and it's super fun.

Thank you for having me on. It's been a lovely chat.

Thank you. Okay, let me-

Thank you so much for joining our discussion. If you enjoyed this, please like, subscribe, most of all, share the love with others. Please share this episode so that we can help other people really recalibrate every aspect of their lives so they can be the best version of themselves, and I will see you in the next episode.

I want to have my quick disclaimer here that this is not a one-size-fits-all. If you want one-on-one coaching, let's talk, and we will make sure what wellness means to you is really put into your life, put into practice. I am using my undergrad in applied health and my life coaching experience to bring this podcast to you