Episode 165: Burnout in Healthcare Workers

[00:00:00] Introduction to Wellness In Every Season

[00:00:00] Autumn Carter: This is episode 1 67.

[00:00:05] Welcome to Wellness In Every Season, the podcast where we explore the rich tapestry of wellness in all of its forms. I'm your host, autumn Carter, a certified life coach, turn wellness coach, as well as a certified parenting coach dedicated to empowering others to rediscover their identity in their current season of life.

[00:00:24] My goal is to help you thrive, both as an individual and as a parent.

[00:00:28] Understanding Burnout: A Medical Perspective

[00:00:28] Autumn Carter: Today we are going to be talking about burnout. And we have somebody who is a burnout and recovery coach specifically for those in the medical profession because she has her own personal journey. And I love interviewing people like this who became a professional in this specific thing because they have their own journey there.

[00:00:51] I think it's so much more fun to talk to people like that. She is somebody who went through school was [00:01:00] practicing and struggled through burnout, and she realized that a lot of other medical professionals were suffering through that as well. And for me, I noticed it come really to the forefront of our attention as the public during COVID.

[00:01:15] So I'm glad that we are talking about this years later because it is still very prevalent and it's something that's not as talked about anymore. So welcome Dr. Emma Jones.

[00:01:28] I'm so excited that you're here and that you're talking about this. This is something that is very near and dear to me because I have had so many clients come to me for burnout and there's signs that happen all along the way, but we fail to recognize what they are until we're looking back. And I know that you were saying that you had the same thing happen to you.

[00:01:50] So welcome. I'm glad you're here. Yeah,

[00:01:50] Emma Jones: thank you. So happy to be here and share my experiences and we all learn together.

[00:01:57] Autumn Carter: So where would you like to start in your [00:02:00] journey, in your story?

[00:02:03] Emma Jones: I mean, that's always the really hardest part because, things are both linear and non-linear, it feels like in my life, and I understand things looking backwards.

[00:02:14] But maybe it's helpful just to tell them. As you said, I am a medical doctor and do most of my work with other people that are in healthcare professions, but burnout is not unique to healthcare professions by any stretch of the imagination. I feel like everywhere we turn today, people are like, I'm burned out.

[00:02:37] Just human life is causing burnout. And yes, during the COVID times, we definitely had accentuated drivers of burnout in the healthcare field where there was really just too much work to do. There were too many sick people. And then there was all of this just like lack of information, right?

[00:02:56] So then the whole public was like, what is really going on? And the [00:03:00] medical people were like, we don't know yet. And that really just kind of started some rifts that, continued today and are really, I think, big drivers of growing dissatisfaction amongst healthcare professionals. So all of that being said, knowing most of your audience are not people who work in healthcare we can definitely talk about my own experiences with burnout.

[00:03:23] How that felt and you know, what I sort of did to get out of it and why it's so important to me to do this coaching and to do this teaching, to help people get out of it.

[00:03:34] Defining Burnout: Symptoms and Signs

[00:03:34] Autumn Carter: Let's start with what is burnout?

[00:03:36] Emma Jones: Great question. It's one of those things that is not a medical diagnosis, so, and or not a psychiatric diagnosis either.

[00:03:44] It's really one of those, I mean, it really started as a occupational description. Something that you would say, oh, you go to work and then you have this problem. Well, now of course we think burnout is much more than just about work, but. It's a case definition that was started for research. So [00:04:00] there are three key elements in that case definition, as originally described by Christina Maslow, like in the eighties.

[00:04:09] And those three things are emotional exhaustion. So like you're just tired and you can't ever feel like you feel better no matter how much you sleep, no matter how much rest you get. I say it feels like your soul is tired. So emotional exhaustion. Cynicism or depersonalization. So you just really like every person around you, you're just aggravated with them, or you just see people as not people, right?

[00:04:32] Just numbers or whatever. And so that cynicism, depersonalization, and then lack of meaning and fulfillment. So it just feels like, what's the point? Like all of this is meaningless anyway. I'm just here. I'm just a cog in a wheel. Whatever language you might use around that and that you can imagine all three of those are kind of on a continuum or two degrees.

[00:04:53] But that if you have one or more of those to a significant degree, you would meet the case definition for burnout. And so he'd say You're in [00:05:00] burnout. Okay, so that's like the science definition. What does it feel like to be in burnout? Like it just feels like if you have ever said like, I can't keep doing this, or There must be more to life than this, or I'm too tired for this.

[00:05:14] Like, that's burnout talking. We don't really need a fancy, you know, three page scale or anything like that. If you feel burned out, you're probably burned out. I mean, it's really as simple as that.

[00:05:26] Autumn Carter: I love that. And I started out with being a coach for stay-at-home moms because so many of them are burned out.

[00:05:34] And then I realized, no, I'm actually coaching people who aren't moms and everywhere else. And it was very interesting because I started with moms because I was one.

[00:05:46] And I love how you said that it is not just medical professionals, although that is the majority of who you work with, but. It can show up everywhere in life. I'm sure there are different degrees that people can be [00:06:00] burned out at work but maybe not at home so they dread going to work or vice versa.

[00:06:04] I've seen that where people don't wanna go home so they'll work longer. They don't wanna take their mandatory vacations 'cause then they have to be around whoever in the home life. So I can definitely see how you can be burned out to various degrees and in different aspects of your life as well.

[00:06:22] Emma Jones: Yeah.

[00:06:23] And it's really, you know, as we're seeing so much more of this understanding of it is evolving, right? And so think that the primitive understanding or old way of understanding was, it was just about the amount of work, right? Like if you work too many hours, you were gonna get burned out.

[00:06:43] Well, we know that's not true because there are people who work 60, 80 hour work weeks and don't feel burned out. And there are people who. Don't technically work, right? Stay at home. Moms don't work by the societal definitions of work. Believe me, they're doing plenty of [00:07:00] work. So it's not just about how many hours you spend at the office or how many hours you spend, you know, like on the road seeing clients or whatever it is.

[00:07:08] It's something more than that. And it really has this element of like the meaning and purpose, like how well you are able to attach to like vision and like mentally attached to, I'm doing this for a reason and I understand why my daily activities are important. That's gonna be protective against burnout.

[00:07:30] If you can't do that, I mean, and then this is where it becomes a vicious cycle because that's part of the burnout, that you're less able to do that, that's gonna just drive you into more burnout because you really, everything you do, you don't see the point because, you know, let's face it, a lot of the things that we have to do in life as adults.

[00:07:48] Are not fun or may not be things that we want to do, right? Whether you're a mom, you gotta change the diapers, you gotta pack the lunches, you gotta drive the carpools. You gotta do all the things. If you're a doctor, we have to do like 8 million pieces of [00:08:00] paper. We have to work 30 hour shifts. If you can say like, I understand it's for a reason.

[00:08:05] You are less likely to burn out than if you're just like, I'm just doing all, just doing. I'm just doing. I'm just doing. I'm just doing. So that, that we're starting to really understand is a big driver of the burnout. The other thing that really drives burnout is this expectation piece. So the cultural understanding that like, I will do work and then I will get rewarded for my work.

[00:08:33] And when that becomes not true, because it's just not always true. We can't control the outcomes of the actions. It is very demoralizing and defeating. And I think then people can get into burnout when they're, they're just like, oh, I am doing all the things that I was told to do.

[00:08:51] I'm following the blueprint, if you will. But I'm not getting the result that I was quote unquote promised by some like cosmic [00:09:00] rule that they made, that they were gonna get a result. And I think with parenthood, you know, it's a lot of expectation, right? We have these images of what we think parenthood is gonna be like, and then when it's not that, when it's real life, like what real parenting is, we're disappointed.

[00:09:17] And that can lead to some of that demoralization and burnout as well. So it's really. I think it would be overly simplistic to think it's just about the hours, which is why the sleeping doesn't make it better, right? Like, oh, I'll just sleep, or I'll take a day off and then it'll make me better and it doesn't because it's much more global of a problem than that.

[00:09:38] Personal Journey Through Burnout

[00:09:38] Autumn Carter: I have a coaching friend who worked in HR for years and she suffered from such extreme burnout that it took her going to therapy, getting her own life coach quitting, and then having years of this before she was finally okay, now I'm put together enough [00:10:00] and I think I wanna become a coach in this.

[00:10:02] And it was towards working professionals. And she also works with people who are in college and they're figuring out their career to really help them understand like, let's set these boundaries now. So she works more in the prevention and then if you are stuck in it. And it was very interesting learning about her journey as we developed our friendship.

[00:10:28] I've had her on my podcast as well, and seeing who she coaches and who lights her up and why it does, and it's very interesting that people who have suffered from something like that and they really dig down deep and have that life altering experience, then they wanna turn around and help somebody else out.

[00:10:48] Maybe I resonate with that because I'm the same way let's go into, okay, you showed some of the symptoms. [00:11:00] Tell me a little bit more like nitty gritty, real world. Like what are you seeing with your clients? What are maybe the very beginning signs of it before you really get into it?

[00:11:14] Emma Jones: Yeah. I think that for me, my burnout was super sneaky because, and this is probably true for a lot of people who are listening, if your baseline is pretty high functioning, you can hide a lot. So for me, I really felt that numbness, that blankness, that just like I'm ready to give up on life on the inside, but on the outside I was still going to work, seeing a full slate of patients every day taking care of my two kids, managing my household, doing all the things.

[00:11:50] It wasn't really until there was kind of like a final trigger. That things kind of collapsed. So [00:12:00] that's sneaky. Right? And that's actually what's really dangerous about being a, a kind of high functioning person, is that you can actually miss a lot of the, what I would call kind of road signs along the way.

[00:12:10] So some of the early warning signs or road signs really if you don't have the joy, like if you have things you used to like and now you don't like them or worse, even worse if you're like actively angry about them that could definitely be a sign that you're starting to feel a little.

[00:12:32] Burned out and now this does not mean like I'm just busy and I wanna opt out of an activity, right? Like, I used to go out drinking with my friends, but now my mom, so I wanna stay home in my pajamas. Like that's not what I'm talking about. I used to love talking on the phone to my mom once a week and now I dread when my mom calls, right?

[00:12:51] Like that's a little bit of a disconnect. That probably means something in your brain is going a little different. [00:13:00] Physical signs for sure are very informative. So if you have like chronic belly pain, that sort of nausea that never goes away, or that like pit feeling in the stomach that you can't really explain.

[00:13:13] Tight shoulders, headaches, sleep problems hip pain, knee pain, just a lot of chronic pain type of stuff. Can definitely be a burnout showing up because your body just stores that stress over time and that definitely was a case for me. I had like really bad chronic back pain and I didn't really do anything to try to take care of it because of course I was just working all the time and not taking care of myself.

[00:13:40] But now I understand that was also not only a lack of self care, but also kind of like the storage stress response in my body. And then I think looking at negative coping behaviors is also another really important guidepost. And like, [00:14:00] I'm not here to sort of shame anybody's comfort anything, but if you find yourself turning to comfort foods, you know, or alcohol, drugs, anything like that, excessive social media use, excessive Netflix watching.

[00:14:14] Like anything that you feel like you're just numbing out. That's probably a sign that you're needing a little tuneup in the burnout department.

[00:14:25] Autumn Carter: I love that. And then so how far into your career were you when you, if you were to look back?

[00:14:35] When do you think you started it and how long did it go for until you're like, okay, enough's enough.

[00:14:42] Emma Jones: What a lovely question. The, final blow, if you will, when I finally, you know, like the universe pulled the last rug out from out under me and I really had to listen.

[00:14:52] I was 10 plus years into my medical career. I had graduated medical school, done the [00:15:00] residency, got the quote unquote real doctor job. Had my dream job at Harvard and had been there for about five years and that's when the crash came that finally led me to make the changes that were needed for me to have the exuberance that I have now.

[00:15:20] But Elliot, every element of my life, including my medical practice. Before that I had had another big crash when I was in medical school and actually almost dropped outta medical school. Like second year of medical school. And that was the first time that I really hit the wall of, of like, I can't perform easily, right?

[00:15:42] So like, kind of like the perfectionism hole. Up until then, I was the kind of student that went through high school pretty easily straight a's without that much effort. Same thing in college. First year of med school did okay. Second year of med school. Like nothing I did could really [00:16:00] maintain me at that level.

[00:16:01] And I was studying so hard. And that's where that. Expectation versus reality really came in an identity. Oh my gosh, I was so wrapped up in I'm gonna be a doctor and I'm so smart and I'm gonna be the best doctor. And then I. Whew, that really, like the rug got pulled out. So that was sort of the first crash for me mentally that was like a burnout, but also a little bit of like existential crisis.

[00:16:27] I recovered a little bit enough to graduate enough to get going with all the rest of the steps, but I didn't really make any of the changes that were necessary to be burnout proof and to actually kind of have that. Joyful relationship with the work that I have now. I just kind of caught my breath just enough and kept like gritting my way through it.

[00:16:50] So I really kind of stayed in some version of chronic burnout for all of those 15 years honestly. And again, many people [00:17:00] who are in this boat are relatively high functioning, even on their worst day it was okay, but it didn't feel okay to me. I mean, one of the most continuous things that now looking back, I'm just like, oh my gosh, why didn't I think this was a problem that I would be mad at my patients?

[00:17:18] This is a pervasive, it's hard for us to admit. It's hard for, you know, if you like go to your doctor and they're like, are you ever mad at me for being your patient? They're gonna say no. 'cause obviously they're not gonna like admit this, but I was actually angry at my patients for like, needing care.

[00:17:32] Like, why are you here taking my time? I don't know what the rest of that sentence was. 'cause like it was my job and I had devoted my life to taking care of people, but, that's the evidence of kind of what's misfiring, right. And just that kind of depersonalization. Right. And cynicism about.

[00:17:53] The work that we were doing, and it's even more abysmal if you were to know that the [00:18:00] type of patients that I took care of were like young children with cancer. So like anyone should wanna be compassionate to them, like just intuitive. Like anyone off the street would be like, oh, this is a baby with cancer, take care of them, right?

[00:18:10] Like, everybody sees St. Jude commercial and start crying and here I am in my burned out state, like, get outta my office. I ain't got time for you kid. I should have known there was a problem.

[00:18:23] Autumn Carter: So somebody who's listening and they're resonating with this and now they're stuck wondering, do I need to do a total 180 on my life?

[00:18:39] What are you recommending for them?

[00:18:41] Emma Jones: Oh my gosh.

[00:18:42] Strategies for Overcoming Burnout

[00:18:42] Emma Jones: I love that question so much because the answer is yes, but not in the way that you think I completely overhauled my entire life and almost zero of the external circumstances of my life changed.

[00:18:58] Autumn Carter: That's good to know because I'm [00:19:00] sure some people like this are gonna be like.

[00:19:02] I'm exhausted and I'm supposed to do what?

[00:19:05] Emma Jones: Yes. So I mean, I did all personally, my journey through the crash and on to where I am now. I did end up changing jobs because through my self-exploration process realized that I. The type of work that I wanted to be doing was actually more community focused, and I see patients in their own homes now.

[00:19:27] I'm like, I get to do really cool stuff that I couldn't do when I was based at a hospital based academic employment. So that's just. Wisdom, right? Like I identified that there's a thing that I'd rather be doing, and so that I moved into that seat. Other than that, I still live in the same house. I got the same husband, I got the same kids.

[00:19:47] I pretty much like, I sleep in the same bed, like everything else is the same as it was before. Pretty much same income, you know, like nothing has drastically changed that you would say [00:20:00] makes my life better or worse. So then what has changed? When I say you do have to drastically change your life.

[00:20:05] You have to renegotiate your relationship with your life, with life itself. The spiritual side. A lot of the healthcare providers that I work with. That's one of the biggest initial pieces of work is that I have to get them to acknowledge that there is a spiritual side.

[00:20:24] They're very cognitive, very much wanna just think their way out of a problem. Would love to acknowledge that they don't have anything below the neck. And that the physical form is all that there is. So this is kind of like, first of all, we have to acknowledge that taking care of the body. Through sleep, nutrition, hydration, you know, all of those kind of just basic tenets of physical health, important.

[00:20:49] Autumn Carter: Medical school.

[00:20:51] Emma Jones: I know. I didn't need to go to medical school to say, drink water, eat vegetables, and go to sleep at a reasonable hour. [00:21:00] But that, you know, that taking, starting to really prioritize my physical health in like the most basic of ways. Like I'm not talking about any kind of specialized program or anything like that.

[00:21:12] And then doing some spiritual work where I recognize that I am more than my thoughts. I'm more than my role in the world. I am more like. There's some sort of core goodness of me and doing whatever practice it is that is going to be the way in for you. There's many, many, many practices that could work.

[00:21:35] But those were kind of two really big keys for me. I looked to the grief literature to know what to do. There was no roadmap for me. There was no blueprint for me, which is why I wrote one, I work with people who have, had someone in their close proximity die I recognized some grief and so I could at least look to the grief literature and say, okay, when you're [00:22:00] grieving, if you've lost a spouse, if you've lost a child, if you've lost a limb, like how do you get out of act? 'Cause I felt like I had lost, like a part of me had been cleaved away.

[00:22:10] Like I did really feel that way. My old identity, like what I thought the good doctor was, had to go away. And the new good doctor, new version of good doctor had to come in, or really now, now I would just say the good, right? All the I am, whatevers we have, we let go of that. So that spiritual work was really, really important for me.

[00:22:33] So when I say that like everything is different, but nothing is different, that's what I mean.

[00:22:40] Autumn Carter: So it sounds like it's self-care, definitely having self-care in there, and then also removing your identity as being I'm a doctor. Yes. And remembering that you are so much more than that.

[00:22:56] Actually, I read a little bit of a self-help book every day [00:23:00] as part of my morning routine. And in this book it talks about how your work is not your identity or the fact that you're a parent. That's not your only identity or whatever you're using as your identity that is not your identity. You are this Venn diagram where you have all these different layers that make up who you are.

[00:23:21] Which also makes it so much easier to have friendships with people because you find something in common out of your little Venn diagram that's you. And we tend to forget that as Americans. One of the first things that we ask is, oh, what do you do for work? Not what lights you up in the day? That's what I, when I met someone yesterday, that's what I asked them, like, what lights you up?

[00:23:43] What are you interested in? Instead of what do you do? Cool question.

[00:23:46] Emma Jones: Yeah. No, I don't know why. I was driving home today and I wasn't talking to anyone. I was in the car by myself, but I was like, oh, the next person I meet, I'm just gonna ask, tell me what makes you awesome. You know, like, yeah, like what I mean, and then I'm [00:24:00] sure I, I can't wait to road test this question.

[00:24:03] And we will in just a minute, stand by. You are gonna know what I'm talking about, but then I imagine I. The person standing in front of me would be like, what? Because like we're so acculturated to a not think well of ourselves, not think that it's something wrong or like braggy or not humble if you, if you talk about yourself in that kind of way.

[00:24:29] And that as I work with people. And I can just see them releasing those layers of identity. It's just magic because when they, when I get somebody that I work with all the time, like if I was to say to one of my oldest clients, like, tell me why you're awesome. She'd just be like, because I am. And then she'd just stare at me for five minutes and it would be like the most awesome thing in the world because she just knows it and she doesn't have to put words around it or wrap it up in like [00:25:00] layers of.

[00:25:02] Whatever surface identity. And that does give you so much freedom and so much power to not be overly attached to something, which then gets back to that disappointment question. It really immunizes you against the burnout when you know, how am I gonna get burned out as a doctor when I know that's just a part of.

[00:25:27] My whole life and I'm here to do good work and I'm gonna do that good work, and then I'm just gonna release attachment to the fruits of those actions like I did my work. Now that takes some work to feel solid about that and to feel grounded that you can like believe that statement like I did my work today.

[00:25:47] Today I took care of probably 10 people, half of which may not be alive tomorrow when I get back to work. But I did my work today, you know, and I feel good about that and I know I did my work. My job was [00:26:00] not to keep those people alive. My job was to take care of them today. That's the kind of understanding that we need to have.

[00:26:09] Whether you're a healthcare worker or a parent, you know, if you're a parent, you can't control what your kid's gonna do. You can influence them. You can parent in a way that's value-based and that you think is the right way to parent, but at the end of the day, your kid's gonna be whoever they're gonna be.

[00:26:24] And if you attach your self-worth to that outcome, of course something bad's gonna happen because that's kind of misaligned.

[00:26:33] Autumn Carter: Yeah. It's easier to remember or to have that reflection and realize that you are misaligned when you are having those self check-ins throughout the day.

[00:26:46] Emma Jones: Yes.

[00:26:46] Autumn Carter: When we are so go, go, go.

[00:26:48] We miss those and then we miss our body telling us, Hey, this isn't right. Or intuition telling us, look out for this sometimes we don't realize [00:27:00] until we are the sick, when nobody, the not contagious kind of sick, where your body's just like, Nope, we're done. We're shutting down on you.

[00:27:08] And then we're looking back and we're like oh, yeah, there were signs along the way. Or when we're completely burned down that we shut down, which is still that same kind of sickness. If you were to give one piece of advice, what would it be? Since we're coming down on time, just what would you sum this up of?

[00:27:30] Here's your action item of what to do.

[00:27:35] Emma Jones: Wow. Okay. That's a lot. Gotta put the whole ocean in the paper cup here. Okay. Let's see if we can do it. I, do love your piece of advice about the self check in, and I think creating for yourself a little bit of a scale not necessarily the Maslow Burnout inventory, but your own, you know, for me it would be called like the Emma's [00:28:00] Wellness Scale and two or three things that tend to be.

[00:28:04] Really strong tells for you. You know, how sensitive am I to noise? Is that something that's a really strong predictor for me? If I find myself getting really sensitive to noise, that's a meter for me. Or how aggravated am I about the dishes not being in the dishwasher? It could be a small thing, right?

[00:28:23] When you're in a well state, you're like, oh, the dishes, the sink is full. I'm just gonna put the dishes in the dishwasher. But when you're in your burned out state, you're like, ah. That could be a tell for you. And then something that you know, is also a good, like what is your self-care oh, I'm starting to feel a little off. I know I can do today I did 10 minutes of yoga. I've worked six days in a row. I haven't been able to do my self-care routine as well as normal. But I know that getting on my mat will be restorative to me. So I just did the, you know, [00:29:00] there's a pose, it's called crocodile pose.

[00:29:01] You just lay face down with your head on your hands like this. I just did that for 10 minutes. But that I know, like I have that in my pocket. It would be on my own, like little personal inventory, right? So like, give me two or three scaling questions. This is how I'm gonna know I'm having trouble. And then what's your SOS?

[00:29:19] Like when and, yep. And if I'm scoring high, like. Go do that thing. It could be drink a glass of water. It could be take a walk, it could be take a nap, it could be anything. But like, give your, like, write that down for yourself. Make yourself your little blueprint. I think that's probably my best advice.

[00:29:36] It's customizable to you. I won't tell you exactly what to put on it, but make yourself that low plan. When you're in your best self. Maybe first thing in the morning or whenever you're feeling the best, that's when you write the plan. And then when you're feeling your worst is when you follow the plan.

[00:29:52] Autumn Carter: I love it. There's somebody who I'm coaching and I gave her the [00:30:00] one way that you can know what you need to do for that day to help yourself with wellness and the self-care part is, what do I feel like I'm lacking the most? Mm, love that. What would fill that cup or that box the most right now and having that be her go-to?

[00:30:19] One thing that stood out to me when you were talking, well, there were several. I used to work in the medical profession. I did billing and coding, and I've also been a tech and other things. And there are different doctors that came to mind, oh, they're probably suffering from burnout. I thought they were a narcissist, or, oh.

[00:30:37] Different people, different things. Yeah. So it's very interesting to think about that, but it also, we totally practice what we preach because. You emailed me saying, I feel like I'm coming down with something. And I read that email when I was about to email you saying the exact same thing, and I was feeling really off.

[00:30:59] And [00:31:00] then the next day I woke up and it was COVID. So it's really great to have those check-ins with yourself and, oh, maybe I need to put this off and not push through this because I'm gonna feel even worse. So I love that we're talking about this and we totally practice what we've preached there. So yay to both of us.

[00:31:18] Emma Jones: Was really a, a lovely, practice in action moment, and it's definitely not something that I in the healthcare field have been trained to do. That is specifically something I have to retrain people to take sick days to raise their hand and ask for help or say like, I'm not thriving right now.

[00:31:39] Like can we rework this? It is not, I have shown up to work. Many days like myself connected to IV pole. I mean we're, we joke about it, but we're like, I don't think you're a real doctor if you haven't vomited on somebody's shoes 'cause you like came to work six. So. Definitely, a, a marker of my [00:32:00] transformation that I was able to say that to you, and I'm glad you received it so well.

[00:32:06] Autumn Carter: Yeah, well, it's mutually beneficial. It made me feel so much better. I was like, oh, she's sick too. Yay. The other thought is, and I wanna pre soapbox for just a second, is because I worked in the medical field and I was one who, the payments came to me.

[00:32:22] Right? There were so many meetings that happened because all the insurance companies follow Medicare. Yes. Medicare does not pay well. So all of you that are on Medicare love that people are on Medicare. It is great if you're the patient, but as a provider you are billing out and you, if you guys look at any of your EOBs, that's the explanation of benefits.

[00:32:47] So it's your statement that comes through and you see how much they're charging and it looks astronomical. It is a really stupid game and. It's crazy when you see how much they adjust off and then how much [00:33:00] they pay. It can be pennies, sometimes it's ridiculous. So because of that, healthcare providers are encouraged, pushed, threatened, all the different words to then perform more and more and more so that the providers are making as much as they were before a couple years ago.

[00:33:20] So they even do it to themselves, but then whoever they're working for, if they are working for somebody else, they have to do it. And realizing that the employees like me, who worked for them, are expecting raises and bonuses and other things. So they need to figure out ways to see more and more patients.

[00:33:41] So it's that conveyor belt thing and knowing that providers, I thought about going into optometry. I was very serious, had my schools mapped out everything and realized I'd be going from a stay-at-home mom who my kids are used to seeing, to they are [00:34:00] never gonna see me. Especially because for any of you who have been patients at doctor's offices and plan ahead like I do, you are scheduling a year out.

[00:34:09] So that means, and we all know for parents who have kids in school, how much notice do you get about the school play or whatever? Right? Or if somebody's sick, how are you taking time off? I had an optometrist that I worked for, he broke his leg and patients were upset when they came in for their new appointment, saw him with a boot on.

[00:34:32] They don't expect, and they get upset when providers show that they have a family life, that they're human. So thank you for letting me soapbox.

[00:34:44] Emma Jones: I really appreciate that because those realities drive dissatisfaction on both sides of the curtain.

[00:34:52] You know, the patients are dissatisfied. Of course you are. You're getting a negative experience when you show up at the doctor's office, of course you should [00:35:00] expect better than that. And on the provider side and on the back office side, we're frustrated because we can't get reimbursed for the work that we do.

[00:35:10] And it is reimbursement. You know, we have to give the care first and then hope that we can get paid for it. So you know, if you are out there and you run a business. You're giving away your stuff and then hoping you get paid for it. Nobody would run their business that way. But that's the way all medical offices work, unfortunately.

[00:35:30] So there are a lot of things that definitely make it hard. Almost everyone I know is in it for the right reason though. There's exceptions to every rule, but those doctors that you encountered, that seem like kind of a jerk. They probably were burned out or just didn't know how to handle the stresses of the realities of medicine in 2025.

[00:35:53] Even 15 years ago when I had my own oncology practice, things were really different [00:36:00] than they are now. It's changed a lot in a short period of time, and we are still trained as if we're practicing like 1980s medicine. So there's a real disconnect in the realities and the, training and doctors need way better communication skills.

[00:36:20] Doctors need way better, like emotional processing skills because the game is different now. Everything you just said is 100% true. And unfortunately I don't wanna, you know, I mean, I'm not here to say woe is me. There's a lot of great things about being a doctor, but we're feel like we're just sort of cast amongst the waves just as much as the patients are.

[00:36:41] And I hope that we can find a way forward. My belief and why I do what I do with the healthcare coaching is that somebody smarter than me is gonna solve this problem. But if that person is currently burned out, they can't. Tap into their zone of genius. So it is my job to clear the [00:37:00] burnout so they can access their genius and solve this healthcare crisis.

[00:37:04] That's how I'm contributing to the betterment of society.

[00:37:09] Autumn Carter: You're helping the helper that,

[00:37:11] Emma Jones: yes.

[00:37:12] Autumn Carter: Is there any last words as we part, and then after that, tell us where to find you. If somebody's resonating with you, whether or not they're a doctor, how can they find you? Yeah,

[00:37:23] Emma Jones: yeah, yeah. I don't know if I have any last words.

[00:37:23] I think we've said plenty, maybe better to leave a little space and not fill anymore. And if people want to find me, my website is Emma Jones md.com and we, that's kind of our main hub. I am also on Instagram Emma Jones MD is my Instagram handle. So either one of those places, if you want to. See what I'm talking about.

[00:37:50] I talk about burnout in all fields. I just only coach with healthcare professionals one-on-one, but burnout's burnout. So [00:38:00] happy to have have you come over and check out my stuff.

[00:38:04] Autumn Carter: Great. Thank you so much for being on and for talking about this just reminding us that this is common and maybe the person that you thought was a jerk behind the counter or at the doctor's office or maybe even on the road, maybe there's something more going on than they just are a jerk and that's that.

[00:38:26] So I love giving different perspectives and I really appreciate this. So thank you very much. Happy to be here. Fun conversation.

[00:38:36] Final Thoughts and Resources

[00:38:36] Autumn Carter: Thanks for tuning into this week's episode. I am your host, autumn Carter, a certified life coach dedicated to empowering individuals to rediscover their identity, find balance, miss chaos, strengthen relationships, and pursue their dreams. My goal is to help people thrive in every aspect of their lives. I hope today's discussion inspired you and offered valuable insights.

[00:38:59] Stay [00:39:00] engaged with our wellness community by signing up for my newsletter at wellness and every season.com/free resources. When you join, you'll have the option to receive a five day guide called Awaken and Unwind, five Days to Mastering Your Mornings and Evenings, along with Free Guides, special offers on my programs, practical tips, personal stories.

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[00:39:41] So please spread the word about our podcast and about our newsletter. Thank you for being a part of our podcast community. I look forward to continuing our conversation, sharing stories and exploring wellness in all of this aspects. Take care until our next episode. You can also work [00:40:00] with me one-on-one or on demand through one of my programs by visiting wellness in every season.com/programs.

[00:40:09] One last thing to cover the show legally, I'm a certified life coach giving general advice, so think of this, this more as a self-help book. This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. I am not a licensed therapist, so this podcast shouldn't be taken as a replacement for professional guidance from a doctor or therapist.

[00:40:29] If you want personal one-on-one coaching from a certified life and parenting coach, go to my website, wellness and every season.com. That's where you can get personalized coaching from me for you. See you in next week's episode.